Bill & Barack's Excellent Adventure

My impression is that you have quoted from the DNC playbook. Same old Same old story. Everybody is wrong but you??

You are not dealing with my request for evidence. I want to know if your allegations have any truth to them, or if you are just talking? I have gone to the GOP website and investigated their claims. I have not gone to the Democratic website, but they are not the one making allegations. Have you check out the allegations? Where did you search and what did you find?

What specifically did Obama do wrong in t his relationship?

You don't carry around the luggage of others who have been put on display with possible crimes against the United States. Ayers ,Rezko and others who have a dark cloud hanging over their heads. Obama may as well have sought and picked Edwards for VP. Same old, Same old story. Not to mention Wright ,that is another story that will never be answered. So easy to say I resigned from the church and never believed what was preached! What did Barry say ,oh you must have mis=understood what I didn't say. The ???? is can the empty suit be filled with something the DNC & Kennedy's want and need to defeat the Clinton's!!

Okay, tell me where I can go to find this information. Are there weblinks? Books? What? I would like to know.

The relationship itself was a bad idea for any politician interested in national office. He accepted the support and friendship of an unrepentant terrorist and 60's radical.

One other thing, Obama was eight years old when the Weathermen terrorists were active.

Which gave Obama plenty of time to figure out that it might not be a good idea to pal around with any of them. I agree with JR Dunn: he's a flake.

Asked and answered see 6.1

You are making an allegation. I am asking for evidence. Prove your allegation.

If you can prove it, I will accept it. But in my research I have yet to find evidence that they were friends.

And your use of epithets lends me to think your statements are based on emotion, not reason or factual evidence.

If that is true, why do you do that?

You want proof that associating with terrorists isn't a good idea? You may as well want proof that water is wet. Maybe you should widen your "research" to include something other than Obama-fansites...
There were no epithets in my post; I used the term that the author of the piece that I linked used. Do you ever actually follow the links provided and read the articles?

Here's an excerpt from a recent Stanley Kurtz article :

Although Obama actually launched his political career at an event at Ayers's and Dohrn's home, Obama has dismissed Ayers as just "a guy who lives in my neighborhood," and "not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis." For his part, Ayers refuses to discuss his relationship with Obama.
Although the press has been notably lax about pursuing the matter, the full story of the Obama-Ayers relationship calls the truth of Obama's account seriously into question. When Obama made his first run for political office, articles in both the Chicago Defender and the Hyde Park Herald featured among his qualifications his position as chairman of the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a foundation where Ayers was a founder and guiding force. Obama assumed the Annenberg board chairmanship only months before his first run for office, and almost certainly received the job at the behest of Bill Ayers. During Obama's time as Annenberg board chairman, Ayers's own education projects received substantial funding. Indeed, during its first year, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge struggled with significant concerns about possible conflicts of interest. With a writ to aid Chicago's public schools, the Annenberg challenge played a deeply political role in Chicago's education wars, and as Annenberg board chairman, Obama clearly aligned himself with Ayers's radical views on education issues. With Obama heading up the board and Ayers heading up the other key operating body of the Annenberg Challenge, the two would necessarily have had a close working relationship for years (therefore "exchanging ideas on a regular basis"). So when Ayers and Dorhn hosted that kickoff for the first Obama campaign, it was not a random happenstance, but merely further evidence of a close and ongoing political partnership. Of course, all of this clearly contradicts Obama's dismissal of the significance of his relationship with Ayers.

I apologize for not following your link. In my ignorance I did not recognize "flake" as a link.

I have now gone there and to the other material you have provided. What I have discovered are two conservative sites which both have a number of articles which I regard as scurrilous. I'm not trying to throw mud, I just don't trust those sources. You do, it seems and I respect that. But I don't.

Let me say a word about the difficulty you and I have in having a dialogue on this topic. We both have sources of information on this topic which we view as trustworthy. I assume we both want our particular candidate to be elected in November; and, I would not be surprised if you did not feel the nation's future is at risk if the "other" candidate wins ( I certainly feel that way). Given such interest we may both be suspect of what others say and refuse to believe opinions counter to our own pre-formed base.

So what do we do? It is unlikely that either of us will convince the other to come to our position. I have decided to do my best to stick to the truth as I can determine it and verify it before I express my opinion. I may fail to do that sometimes. I am a passionate fellow. But that is my intent. That is why I ask for evidence.

I have written an article on newsvine which focuses on the swift boat campaigns which are now underway. I do not respect the swift boats. You may. Nonetheless, I based my article on material about Ayers and Obama taken from Factcheck.org---a non-partisan site dedicated to testing the factual about various advertising claims.

What I found was three "facts": (1) Obama was eight years old when the Weathermen were active. (2) William Ayers is a respected professor of education at the University of Ilinois in Chicago. (3) The Woods Fund (or Annennberg Challenge) board which Obama chaired for three years also had Republicans, bankers, lawyers and teachers on that board. Outside of the one political "meet the candidate" meeting, I find no verifiable evidence that Obama and Ayers carried on a friendship relationship.

So t hat is what I believe. Just because someone else, whose reputation I question, says there was a friendship does not change my mind.

I also went to an Associated Press fact-check and found the material you will find below. I have highlighted the portions I find to be most relevant. AP FactCheck: Obama's Connections to Ayers Tenuous

William Ayers probably never got this much attention even when he was a member of the radical Weather Underground.

Ayers is, of course, today's 24x7 instant media story because of his 'relationship' with Sen. Barack Obama. Based on the exchange about Ayers during Wednesday night's debate in Philadelphia, you might have thought that Obama and Ayers were plotting the overthrow of the U.S. government together 40 years ago - even if Obama was only eight at the time.

But an Associated Press fact check shows that the connections between Obama and Ayers are a bit more tenuous -- if there is a connection at all.

So here are the facts:

Ayers was a member of the group when a bomb it was making in a Manhattan townhouse exploded and killed three people. He fled, spend years as a fugitive, met and fell in love with fellow group member Bernadine Dohrn. In the mid-'70s, the federal charges against Ayers and Dohrn were dismissed because of government misconduct. But the two kept underground for three more years. They both surrendered to police in 1980 and were never prosecuted (a point not mentioned during last night's debate).

In 1982 Dohrn spent several months in jail for refusing to give police a sample of her writing while police were investigating a case where three Weathermen and members of the Black Liberation Army killed an armored car driver and two policemen during a botched robbery. Dohrn was not involved in the incident in any way, but refused to give the police the sample "on principle."

When Obama was organizing his first race for the state legislature [in 1995], the incumbent lawmaker he hoped to replace introduced him to her supporters and urged them to back Obama. One introductory event took place at the home of Ayers and Dohrn, according to published reports. Ayers contributed $200 to Obama's legislative campaign in 2001, but there is no other sign that he has actively aided Obama's political career. Ayers and Obama both served on the board of the Woods Fund, a Chicago-based charity that focuses on developing community groups to assist the poor. Local business executives ... and journalists .. are also members, as well as local academics.

Here's a good 2001 profile of Ayers by the Chicago Tribune.

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UPDATE: The Swamp reports that Mayor Richard Daley comes to Obama's defense.

The mayor released the following statement:

"There are a lot of reasons that Americans are angry about Washington politics. And one more example is the way Senator Obama's opponents are playing guilt-by-association, tarring him because he happens to know Bill Ayers.

"I don't condone what he did 40 years ago but I remember that period well. It was a difficult time, but those days are long over. I believe we have too many challenges in Chicago and our country to keep re-fighting 40 year old battles."

I close by saying that I respect you and your passion. I challenge both of us anew, to strive to discern the truth, and once we have found it, to be open to dialogue with those who hold a different position.

Obama once visited 60s radicals by Ben Smith, Feb 22, 2008
/www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html>

Tom Bobbadil:

I have gone to the Politico site you listed. I agree Politico is a non-partisan source. I will quote from that site (below) and summarize what I found.

Now, as Obama runs for president, what two guests recall as an strong> gathering on the road to a minor elected office stands as a symbol of how swiftly he has risen from a man in the Hyde Park left to one closing in fast on the Democratic nomination for president.

"I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress," said Dr. Quentin Young, … of the informal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. "[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor."

Obama and Palmer "were both there," he said.

Obama's connections to Ayers and Dorhn have been noted in some fleeting news coverage in the past. But the visit by Obama to their home — part of a campaign courtship — reflects more extensive interaction than has been previously reported.

Neither Ayers nor the Obama campaign would describe the relationship between the two men. Dr. Young described Obama and Ayers as "friends," but there's no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation.

So far, Ben Smith, says the meeting was unremarkable but more extensive than previous noted (previously, only the joint membership on the Wood Fund (Annenberg Challenge) has been noted. Dr Young says "friends". Smith says the evidence shows only casual friendship due to being in the Chicago political environment and serving on the previous mentioned board.

But Obama's relationship with Ayers is an especially vivid milepost on his rise, in record time, from a local official who unabashedly reflected a very liberal district to the leader of national movement based largely on the claim that he can transcend ideological divides.

In one sense, Obama's journey toward the cultural and political center is not unusual among national politicians. But its velocity is.

Two things: (1) the visit at Ayers' house was vivid. Why? [My spin:] because that time was the beginning of Obama's political career. "That time" speaks to the period of time in which Obama became a candidate. No doubt he visited many other homes in a "meet-the-candidate" mode. (It is possible I have made the wrong interpretation here, but it seems logical and truthful to me.) (2) Obama's rise from citizen to politician was fast. There is no indication that the velocity of his rise had anything to do with Ayers.

"I feel very uncomfortable with their past, but neither of them is thought of as horrible types now — so far as most of us know, they are legitimate members of the community," said Cass Sunstein, a University of Chicago law professor who has known Obama since the early 1990s and supports his campaign.

"Not only is Obama the opposite pole from radicals like Ayers and Dohrn at least as one point were, he's not a conventional left liberal by any means," he said.

"Ayers was a terrorist. Bernardine Dohrn was a terrorist. Ayers has never offered one word of apology — he glories in it, thinks it's terrific. And that to me is not what I would call acceptable or mainstream behavior," said Dan Polsby, a former law professor at Northwestern who is now dean of George Mason University Law School. "If Obama takes a different view on that — well, OK, that's data about Obama."

"Sen. Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group, as he does all acts of violence," said Obama's press secretary, Bill Burton. "But he was an 8-year-old child when Ayers and the Weathermen were active, and any attempt to connect Obama with events of almost 40 years ago is ridiculous."

He described Ayers as "a professor of education at the University of Illinois-Chicago and a former aide to Mayor Richard J. Daley," referring to printed reports that he had "advised" Daley on school reform.

(1) Cass Sunstein, Univ of Chicago law professor, says Ayers' past makes him uncomfortable, but that Ayers is a legitimate member of the community now. And, that Obama is a polar opposite person to Ayers. (2) Dan Polsby, a former law professor at Northwestern who is now dean of George Mason University Law School says that Ayers was an unapologetic terrorist. And he goes on, IF Obama thinks differently, well that's just Obama. (3) But Obama does think differently. "Sen. Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group".

[I left out some material re. Palmer and Obama's difficulties in the second re-election campaign]

re the meeting at Ayers' home (1995)

Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left.

"When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of . . . Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn," Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. "They were launching him — introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread."

Contacted by e-mail, Warren declined to describe the meeting further and later blogged of her concern that Republicans would use accounts of the event for "left-baiting."

Young described the gathering as a matter of "due diligence" for Palmer to introduce her chosen successor to constituents. "Many of us knew him already," he said.

These paragraphs speak to the motivations of Ayers and Palmer. They are slightly contradictory as to who was the prime mover in the meeting, Ayers or Palmer.

SUMMARY:

THE MEETING AT Ayers' house was unremarkable, but it was a "Launching" of Obama's political career. His political rise to national attention was swift, but surely Ayers' donation of $200 was not significant.. The interaction between Obama and Ayers is described a "friends" and "casual friendship".

Two professors: one says that Ayers was considered a legitimate member of the community; and, that Obama was a polar opposite to Ayers. The other professor denounces Ayers and is not sure how Obama felt about him.

Obama condemns the Weathermen's violate activities. He was eight years old when those events took place.

Re the meeting at Ayers' home: one account says that Ayers . . . "launched Obama's career"; the other account said the the incumbent, Palmer, introduced him as her chosen successor. Both accounts could be true, but there is no evidence I am aware of to magnify Ayers' role to that of "launcher".
===================================

Okay, that's my take. I learned only a little more than I already knew. In comment # 7.4 above, I said, before reading this Politico article:

What I found was three "facts": (1) Obama was eight years old when the Weathermen were active. (2) William Ayers is a respected professor of education at the University of Ilinois in Chicago. (3) The Woods Fund (or Annennberg Challenge) board which Obama chaired for three years also had Republicans, bankers, lawyers and teachers on that board. Outside of the one political "meet the candidate" meeting, I find no verifiable evidence that Obama and Ayers carried on a friendship relationship.

Any comments from you guys? You can go the the original document that Tom linked by clicking on the link at the beginning of this comment.

The title of that site is "Obama once visited 60s radicals". My point is that he visited "once" Ayer's home. And, that in the 1990s, Ayers was a respected member of the Chicago community, having been an aide to Mayor Richard Daley, and a professor in a state university. He served on the board with Republicans, doctors, lawyers and teachers. Yes Ayers was an unrepentant terrorists, but Obama was not the only member of the Chicago community who interacted with him.

this material is scheduled to be released tomorrow. The delay was based on a concern that a number of person's private information, including social security numbers would be disclosed.

It will be interesting to see of there is anything of interest in the archives. It is interesting to me that if some document is not available, we jump on the idea that some conspiracy is at work.

I guess every time this idea is brought up, someone will have to rebut it.

Obama was eight years old when the Weathermen were active.

When he and Ayers served on the board of the Annenberg Challenge, Ayers was a respected professor at the University of Illinois-Chicago.

Once, Obama went to Ayer's home for a "meet the candidae" meeting when he was a candidate for state senator. the meeting was hosted by the previous office-holder. Ayers contribued $200 to Obama's campaign.

The board, of which Obama was the chair for three years, was composed of a variety of members including Republicans, lawyers, doctors and teachers.

Any other contacts between Obama and Ayers were incidnetal.

Chicago's mayor Richard Daly said he has a relationshp with Ayers as well and that Ayers is very civic minded.

Tomorrow the heretofore undisclosed papers re the Annenberg challenge will be revealed. What will they show?

Another way of saying what Don said was (1) implementing a health care plan for all Americans, (2) implementing diplomatic relations with nations instead of going to war with them and (3) giving us a tax system that is focused on the well-being of the middle class, over the well being of the extreme upper class.

I am NOT one of the rich. I earn less than $30,000/year. However, I do not condone excessive tax on people just because they are more intelligent than I. If they can earn more money, let them keep it and spend it to enrich the economy. Congress needs to curtail their spending and lower the taxes for everyone. I am a firm believer in a "Flat Tax". Say a 20% on everyone with no tax on $10,000/year or less.

God Bless America!

fiscal responsibility does require getting control of expenditures;

And if anyone thinks that's in the cards with Obama in the White House with Dem majorities they need help, serious help. And what if Republicans lose the filibuster as well? Goodbye Republic, hello Socialist State.