Did Obama's ACORN Steal Dem Nomination from Hillary?

lol tom you do realise that registration fraud and voter fraud is two differnt things?

i guess not.

LOL

Tom

I read this and voted for this article. 

 It is very good and all of your links have wonderful information.  Glad to read you on the Daily Kos. You are the only writer on the Daily Kos I have trust in. :-)  This issue concerns me very much, I don't want to have to wait a month for an election count nor do I want the election to be won on fraud from ACORN.

Tom

I hope they don't delete it.  It is so full of the truth that I am not surprised that they are kicking and screaming.

They are terrified of honest debate or disagreement. Maybe they don't see your anecdotes and speculation as honest. I know I don't.

voter registration fraud is the intent to commit vote fraud. Bull@!$%#. I've seeded several articles quoting voting rights experts who disagree that duplicate registrations are "fraudulent" in intent, and who deny that even fraudulent registration leads to voting fraud. For instance--

GOP sound and fury about ACORN is a little bit nutty: Gerald Hebert, a retired U.S. Department of Justice voting rights expert who served under Republican and Democratic presidents, says the kind of fraud that the GOP is charging ACORN with — deliberately registering fictitious people or registering the same person in two different precincts — is extremely rare. Hebert is now executive director of the Campaign Legal Center in Washington. The nonprofit organization was founded by Trevor Potter, who represents the McCain campaign in lawsuits over voter suppression.

Former US Attorney Says FBI Probe of ACORN Seeks to Create a "Bogeyman" for the GOP: "I'm astounded that this issue is being trotted out again," Iglesias told TPMmuckraker. "Based on what I saw in 2004 and 2006, it's a scare tactic." In 2006, Iglesias was fired as U.S. attorney thanks partly to his reluctance to pursue voter-fraud cases as aggressively as DOJ wanted -- one of several U.S. attorneys fired for inappropriate political reasons, according to a recently released report by DOJ's Office of the Inspector General.

Ghosts of Elections Past-- Richard Hasen: The fraudulent fraud squad: The Justice Department devoted unprecedented resources to ferreting out fraud over five years and appears to have found not a single prosecutable case across the country. Of the many experts consulted, the only dissenter from that position was a representative of the now-evaporated American Center for Voting Rights.

Behind the GOP's voter fraud hysteria: the Republican crusade against voter fraud is a strategic ruse. Rather than protecting the election process from voter fraud -- a problem that barely exists -- Minnite says the true aim of Republican efforts appears to be voter suppression across the partisan divide. ... From 2002 to 2005 only one person was found guilty of registration fraud. Twenty people were found guilty of voting while ineligible and five people were found guilty of voting more than once. That's 26 criminal voters -- voters who vote twice, impersonate other people, vote without being a resident -- the voters that Republicans warn about. Meanwhile thousands of people are getting turned away at the polls.

"Florida 2000 Redux": Republican Claims of Voter Fraud, and Their Preference for Vote Suppression: Indiana's voter registration rolls include a large number of names of persons who are either deceased or no longer live in Indiana," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens for the majority in Crawford v. Marion County. Still, there was no evidence that someone was trying to vote on their behalf. "The record contains no evidence of any such fraud actually occurring in Indiana at any time in its history," Stevens wrote, noting that to do so would be a felony. In fact, to find an example of widespread voter impersonation the court had to reach back to the New York City elections of 1868

It's not that Joules is engaging in lawyerly parsing, it's that there's no evidence that duplicate registrations lead to the dilution of legitimate votes. Meanwhile, stories such as yours are used to justify the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of legitimate voters.

Honest debate and disagreement? Do let me know when you start.

Don't blame this on one party, remember how McCain was for Acorn before he was against it?

Gore won the 2000 election

He did?  Dang he does a great GW Bush impression.

My respect for you just dropped a couple of notches i.

My respect for you just dropped a couple of notches i. Like I give a @!$%#. I lost all respect for you when you played the "Palin was never for the Bridge to Nowhere" game.

Reread the Bridge to Nowhere facts, and I'm no Palin fanatic.

Yes Tom, like Jimmy Carter, Gore should go down in history as a person who severely damaged his country, the Worst Person In The World as Blabbermann might say.

Gore damaged the country.  And then he got really crazy!

Like I give a @!$%#. I lost all respect for you when you played the "Palin was never for the Bridge to Nowhere" game.

Yes I know, when the facts are presented, your partisanship kept you from admitting the truth, which your comment about Gore just reinforced.

Tom

There is a new one floating around now.  Palin said today that the VP is in charge of the Senate and the nutroots here went wild over it.  The forgot this part from the constitution.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.

It is funny (in that tragic kinda way) that they are completely ignoring my post in that thread.

becasue it is a baseless accusation.

 hey bush actually kid napped the limberg baby.. want to  respond?

JB,

This is not a baseless accusation.  Voter fraud did occur in the caucus states.  TX has over 2000 complaints filed about precinct caucus shenanigans. 

There are a number of groups that will be outed before long.  Anyone who believes in Demoracy, one person, one vote, should be concerned.  This is not a partisan issue, this an issue that must be addressed no matter who is committing the fraud.

Using the argument that the Republicans have indulged in voter and registration fraud does not excuse what has and is occurring in our country today, and ACORN is smack dab in the middle of much of it. 

The bottom line is, it should be investigated and corrected regardless of who is perpetuating the crime.  Democracy is fragile, and it is eroded when this type of fraud runs unchecked.

It's not so much that you've struck a nerve, more that this shilling is akin to hearing fingernails drawn across a blackboard.  Yeah, it may get your attention, but it's annoying as all hell.

Keep up your Acorn talk with the exception of the right wing of your party people are not paying attention to it. You can't beat the same dead horse in an election year then drop it until you need the issue again for the next election. Normal average people don't know who Acorn is and don't care. If Acorn is convicted of doing something wrong then people would listen. Right now it's just a bunch of right wing nut jobs running their mouths while they try to keep the poor folks from voting.

And, John McCain doesn't just talk about paying women equally for their work.

Obama claims he would be a better advocate of equal pay for women.  June, 2008

But doesn't do it -- McCain does.   September, 2008

(# 5.6)

"Right now it's just a bunch of right wing nut jobs ..."

Left wingers like to call conservatives 'wing-nuts', short for 'right wing nuts'. 

However, at least conservatives are the high quality nuts – like Cashews, Almonds, Walnuts.

The left-wingers are just Acorns.

They tend to litter the ground this time of year.

In comparison to the 'wing-nuts', Acorns are soft, mushy, and easily crushed under foot!! [author unknown]

I thought this was creatively written.

ACORN is trying to kill election integrity, free markets, and the US economy. And, they're doing a great job.

xD

Colbert isn't serious, man.

I like you Tom, but don't even try to blame Acorn for our current economic crisis. That would be really out there.

I know what they do here in Houston, and it is fight the slum lords that sell houses on contract for deed--except for guess what....somehow its never paid off....

Please stop listening to Sean and Rush, try NPR instead.

Once again you make an accusation but do not back it up with any actual proof.  Do you have any, or is this just another attempt to smear Obama through bogus claims that have no merit? 

I'm more than willing to fairly evaluate evidence - but so far you have not presented anything other than innuendo and rhetoric - mostly propaganda put out by individuals and groups that have an interest in keeping Obama from winning the election.

Don't you and your fellow McCain supporters realize just how obvious these tactics are?   Most of us are not as dumb as you seem to think we are.    That's why your candidate is losing. 

Well, I'd say you're onto something there. If anyone would know about election fraud, it would be Ken Blackwell. He certainly perfected it in throwing a close election to Bush in 2004. About the only other authoritative voice I'd trust to know how voter fraud works would be Katherine Harris, and for the same reasons.

Opportunity does not equal the actual commission of a crime.   Every time you go to work, you have the opportunity to steal from your employer - does that mean you take advantage of that opportunity?  Should we call your local police and tell them to start an investigation based on the fact that you have the "opportunity" to steal?

Furthermore, you are not justifying your case in any meaningful way.  You make a claim that "the act of registration opens up a whole slew of fraud opportunities" - but you don't list a single one of those potential opportunities, or explain how an "election official" can take advantage of a bogus registration filed by some homeless guy who just wanted to make a few extra bucks (especially one that the official probably isn't even aware of because he's never met the homeless guy and doesn't even know the guy made up phony registrations).

If you want me to give any credence to what is basically (at this point) innuendo, then please lay out some proof of an actual connection that would make this scenario plausible. 

Most of all, the sheer number of bogus registrations and/or votes needed to "steal" an election makes the whole idea rather improbable - especially when it would be so much easier for that "unscrupulous" election official to just alter the final tally.  

Let's face it - we, as average individuals, do not see the actual counting going on.  We have no idea what kind of tampering is possible, or whether the numbers reported at a particular precinct can be changed in transit.  We are asked to trust an untrustworthy and unverifiable system. 

More importantly, we already know that there are many things that ARE being done to try and suppress the vote - such as threatening that anyone with an unpaid traffic ticket might be arrested if they go to vote, or jamming phone lines, or challenging people at the polls, etc.  

All these tactics are being used by the GOP - not the Dems - and are primarily targeted at low income neighborhoods and/or black/Hispanic voters who are most likely to vote Democratic. 

ACORN is the least of our problems. 

Never count your chickens before they're hatched, Tom.   That's pretty much how Wall Street crumbled. 

I'm done with this thread.   This isn't even remotely "newsworthy" - it's just propaganda and a large load of smelly, steaming cow dung.     Continuing to respond to all this is lending credence to something that doesn't deserve any. 

Buh bye. 

Ditto, Maureen. I guess I've got to chalk Tom up there with space guy under "people who could give a @!$%# about the truth." Good job, Tom. You've got one less reader.

Kenneth Blackwell! Kenneth Blackwell!? Whoa. Bwah HA HA Ha... ho.. he.. hum.. um, really?

Is this just being repeated so that the far right can feel good that they are getting headlines for these press releases and or facsimiles of gop local press releases?

Congratulations Tom!

You were right - it's impossible for some to even acknowledge that the alleged tactics by ACORN are problematic.  Once again, it's about the 'who' and not the 'what'.

It seems the philosophy is that since we're not doing one large sweep to stop all voter/registration fraud, there's no point in going after this one organization...and that has nothing to do with ACORN's politics, partisan gimmicks, their Obama endorsement, reports of past affiliations...it's merely a generic disinterest because voting manipulations just aren't that interesting.  Granted, the 2000 election was decided by several hundred votes, the Washington state governors race was won by 134 votes.  ACORN is being investigated for thousands of violations or 'mismanagement', but that's not important - it is the least of our problems. 

And some might see ACORN as the official face of the worst kind of corruption we can have in this country - if even just part of these investigations bear fruit, then this will be a VERY SERIOUS problem.

Tom says: "Yes, but when ACORN is engaging deliberately in collecting fraudulent registrations in the first place.."  At least he keeps saying it.  It's as if you stop saying it you'l lrealize taht you do not make any sense.

So let me try to say what someone elase was trying to get across. 

1.  ACORN pays people HOURLY (not by amount turned in) to get registrations.

2. Some people are lazy, and instead of spending time walking around gathering real names, they grab the enarest phone book or make up names.

3. They turn them into ACORN.  ACORN may suspect the names are bogus, but alas, if they toss them, they get into trouble.

4.  So ACORN may fire the culprits or turn them in for prosecution (hence all this talk about ACORN folks being investigated),

4.  The GOP, in an effort to create a smokescreen, accuse ACORN of voter (registration) fraud for turning in forms with Mickey Mouse on it.  It's all a ruse so they can challenge legal votes after the election if they lose.

Tom, I hope that sooner or later you'll take a breather and stop trying so hard to spread this garbage.  But, after reading response after response from you, I won't be holding my breath.

3. They turn them into ACORN.  ACORN may suspect the names are bogus, but alas, if they toss them, they get into trouble.

Yes they get in trouble if they toss the roster of the Dallas Cowboys when they are canvassing in California.

My final comment, then I'm outta here:

The real question is:

How much is Tom being paid by the Republican party or some splinter group to spread this misinformation around on the Vine?

After all, knowing that there is a majority of left-leaning Democrats here, Newsvine would be a prime target for the GOP Gestapo to try and cause doubt about Obama and sow dissension among the ranks. 

They're so obvious about it that its pathetic. 

But what's even more pathetic is that it would seem that the GOP has become so focused on winning the election that they have completely given up on integrity, honesty, or the well-being of the nation.   They would rather have us all at each other's throats, or start a new race war, than have an honest election.

What's really sad is, they didn't have to be in this position.  All they had to do was change with the times, be responsive to the needs and wishes of their constituents, and do their sworn duty in a fair and honest manner.   Had they done that, then Obama might never have had a chance.  

Too bad they couldn't handle that. 

See #12 MM.  I don't see you on the side of the angels.

Against my better judgment, I will respond to your question, only because I have no intention of letting you think you scared me off (you couldn't if you tried) ...

I am exactly who I say I am - Maureen Mower. 

Rather than borrowing the name of a character in a JRR Tolkien novel as you did, I use my real name because I stand by what I write, and I don't write articles based on bias and assumptions without any FACTS to support them.   If you haven't seen any of my articles, then you haven't looked all that hard.  All you have to do is click on my name.   We even belong to several of the same groups.   

Since when does sheer volume or length of time on a site determine quality or integrity of the writing?   I'm happy for you that you have the time to write "scores of articles", but that doesn't give you any special authority or make what you write any more truthful.   Until and unless you become a staff member at Newsvine, then you and I (and everyone else on the Vine) are exactly equal in terms of journalistic standing, regardless of how long either of us has been here or how many articles we've written. 

Furthermore, the phrase I used was "GOP Gestapo", and I was talking about the leaders of the party who are responsible for things like those robo-calls.   I did not use that phrase in connection with your name.  I did say that maybe you were being paid by them, and I still think that could be true.  If not, then maybe you're just so busy arrogantly assuming that you are right by virtue of being part of the political "right" that you haven't bothered to take an objective look at what is being done to this country by this kind of hateful, biased, false, and divisive rhetoric.

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right in thinking there's something fishy going on with ACORN.   Okay, I'm all for rooting out any kind of fraud going on with our votes. 

But your headline puts the blame on Obama, even though ACORN has been around longer than he has held office, and even those on your side claim that the alleged "problems" have been in existence all along.

Tell me something Tom (or whatever your real name is):

If you wake up tomorrow morning and have a flat tire, will that be Obama's fault too?  Is he now responsible for EVERYTHING that anyone does, no matter how tenuous the connection, or spurious the claim?

If you want me, or anyone else, to take you seriously, then start writing like a journalist and not like a partisan hack.   

Rather than borrowing the name of a character in a JRR Tolkien novel as you did, I use my real name because I stand by what I write, and I don't write articles based on bias and assumptions without any FACTS to support them.   If you haven't seen any of my articles, then you haven't looked all that hard.  All you have to do is click on my name.   We even belong to several of the same groups. 

Just a note here.  Tom did provide multiple links to multiple sites with plenty of facts.  How about addressing them rather than attack him?

He provided multiple links to sites put up by groups that have a vested interest in trying to keep Obama from winning the election (such as disgruntled Hillary supporters and right-wing conservatives).    I could as easily link you to the article right on Newsvine where CNN declares that it appears the only fraud involved in the ACORN case was committed by the organization's employees against ACORN itself - but if I did you all would immediately claim that CNN is part of the "liberal media elite" and dismiss it.  Which is exactly why I haven't done that yet.

When he puts up a link to a non-partisan,  OBJECTIVE site that provides some EVIDENCE to support the claims made, I will address it.  I haven't seen that yet. 

I don't need immediate gratification though.  I'm more than happy to wait until the FBI concludes its investigation and we have some indisputable facts to work with. 

But then, I suppose if the FBI clears ACORN, you'll claim that they're partisan too, right?

Again, rather than dealing with the facts, you are now attacking the place where the facts originated.  I have posted multiple links to the Hillary campaign where they made the same allegations in Texas.  Hillary is now a republican?

How many negative things were said about John McCain by his rivals and their campaigns during the primaries?   Didn't they accuse him of everything from betraying the country while he was a POW to being too senile to hold office?  Didn't they accuse him alternately of being too much like Bush and yet not enough of a Republican for their taste?  Didn't they toss around his links to questionable people like G. Gordon Liddy?

It's propaganda - all of it.  Always has been, at least for the 46 years I've been on this planet.  

So let's turn the tables here:

If you're so willing to believe everything that is said about Obama, then how willing are you to believe everything that is said about McCain?

Tom, the evidence is right there, a few posts above this one.   My comment about you potentially being on the Republican payroll is not even in the same paragraph as the "GOP Gestapo" comment, and the context of the two is quite different.    So who is being disingenuous? 

I don't care if someone chooses to use a nickname or not.  However, since you challenged me specifically with that "Who are YOU?" question, I thought I'd point out just how silly it was for you to question me when you don't even use your own name.  But even more silly was your comment about your length of time or volume of articles on the Vine.   I notice you didn't have a reply for that.

I am going to stop reading this column, and this will be my last reply.  There's obviously a disconnect here between the truth and what you and your cheering section want to believe, so there isn't much chance of having a real exchange of ideas or productive debate.  

Besides, from the way the voting has been going on these comments, it's obvious that you're preaching to the "choir" anyway.  Notice that most Obama supporters have not even bothered to comment?   I guess they know you better than I do.  But I'm learning, and you can be sure I won't bother reading any more of your political articles. 

Finally, the question about believing everything said about McCain was directed at space guy, since he brought up the issue of things that were said by the Hillary Clinton campaign during the primaries.   But you know that too, since I'm sure you read the posts to that point. 

Well, time for me to end this.  When the real facts come out, via the feds investigation, I may come back to point out just how foolish all this was - or not.   All depends on how generous I'm feeling that day, I guess. 

Welcome back, Tom!  We've missed you.

As always you are much more civil and patient than I ever dreamed of being.  I simply put MM on my ignore list.

No one gave a @!$%# about Hillary's trial when she was still the frontrunner, and it was a serious deal. This is unproven accusation, and the Right has gone gonzo-bananas over it. Is this what happens when you know the issues will kill you in Novemeber?

Tom: 

Had Republicans not been diligent, the "bailout" would have included millions of dollars for ACORN.

That's the absolute truth!  I'm glad someone took a firm stand on that one!  However, I also want to know exactly who added the other pork (wooden arrows, a rum company in caribbean, etc.) to the bailout!  This election year is "over the top" in controversial issues and voter registration fraud [that most likely will lead to voter fraud eventually.]

Tom:  our government seriously needs some election reform and many elected officials need their royal hineys permanently kicked out of office.  This whole situation (bailout,  pork, Acorn, etc.) is like opening a Pandora's box, except those on the inside are desperately trying to hold the lid down lest their evil deeds be exposed to scrutiny by truth-seeking individuals.  I hope a crowbar is forthcoming ... soon.  Agree with your take on the Republicans - they have been a disappointment along with the way McCain's campaign has been managed. I don't agree with living in the past, but I tend to think they should return to the core of their values and yes, grow a spine! Take care, Tom.  Enjoy your articles and posts. 

...and, if Obama doesn't win, the black helicopters and men-in-black will immediately swoop in and confiscate our guns. We will all be tattooed with the word "acorn" or we will not be allowed to buy or sell goods or trade capital.

Indeed, we must connect the dots before it's too late. The socialists are at our door. Threatening to disperse tax money into...gulp,government-services! Services as dastardly as Medicaid, infrastructure improvement and, worst of all, military expenditures!Wake-up, people! Obama is going to steal this election, your guns, your bill of rights and your first-born!

He will then pocket all of the tax-increase revenues and go on vacation with Tony Rezco, William Ayers, and the entire staff of ACORN! And you, fellow republicans, will be forced to serve umbrella drinks to these miscreants, while watching your children being shipped off to madrases, chanting, O-ba-ma! O-ba-ma!

Perish the thought!

Looks like you have the big picture of Newsvine on this whole topic. Sad, isn't it?

At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger   :)

Nope. You have a posse!

Awww, group hug!

cumbaya, y'all!

THANKS!

The sadness I always feel, and for some reason it seems to come mainly from the left, is that the ends always seems to justify the means.  Why not agree that voter fraud is wrong?  Why not agree that anyone voting should have a valid ID?  Why not agree that we all want an honest system?  Why not agree that any reasonable charge of voter fraud should be vigorously invesitigated, regardless of side?  You mean to tell me that we can't even agree that voter fraud is wrong????

Socrates I agree one hundred percent awesome comment.

Socrates (# 20):  Great and very applicable comment.  I hope that many of us on both sides of the fence would agree with your thoughts.

Me, Tonto.

Yep

I have had the honor of being deleted at least four times already today!

political correctness be hanged. 

I've never let that intimidate me, brothers!

:)

Tom!  I am positively distracted by all that is going on in the world of politics . . . the real life work has become an interruption (that honestly gives me a needed break).  Me being a Libra, in need of balance, can you imagine how "off-balance" I feel?  That being an aside from the impotence I feel to do anything about the course we are on!

I am glad to know you are still out there!

From what I've seen there are many questions to the tactics used against Hillary.  Which hadn't been disclosed until recently and is and has been (imo) blatantly ignored.   The sheer magnitude of the impact such has on our nation requires us to sound the alarm on the possibility. 

The integrity of the process must remain or be made sound.  Otherwise there is little hope in our grand experiment continuing.