Recruiting office shooting has readers asking about lack of coverage

Scott, it's an interesting proposition, but consider what would be required (the weapons locked up in a safe, rounds in a separate safe, inventoried and secured by an armorer daily (weapons aren't issued to recruiters, so the only option would be is weapons assigned to the substation) unfortunately , that's not an option. Considering it took 2 letters from 2 Generals (and a year and a half) to get a sidearm issued to the Command Duty Officer ON BASE (which must be turned into the armory every morning) the idea of 'allowing recruiters to carry sidearms' just isn't feasible. Also, (and this is coming as a former military marksmenship instructor) Considering the fact most recruiting stations are in strip malls and other public places, Most soldiers/Marines don't shoot the pistol accurately enough you'd want them firing in a public parking lot. There are many MANY servicemembers who 'pizzaboxed' by the skin of their teeth (and the good graces of their target scorer.)

The only thing that could've saved this soldier was better situational awareness on his part, and better planning by the RSS SNCOIC. This is the reason many Marine recruiters do not wear their uniforms to and from work, and while sitting in the office. Some wear PT gear, but many wear civilian attire, to reduce the profile they present to hostiles (be they protestors, or extremists). We only wear our blues when going to poolee's houses, or to schools.

Unfortunately, the Army considers wearing a uniform 24/7 a 'good recruiting tool' , so much so they highly encourage their soldiers to wear their BDUs when flying on public airplanes when they're going on leave. It may be a good recruiting tool, but it puts troops at unnecessary risk.

And who actively recruits while they're on leave anyways ?

Sgt:

I had forgotten that the military's procedure is different from law enforcement with regards to weapons logging. Now that you've reminded me, you're right that it clearly isn't feasible.

If they can't issue weapons to the recruiters, then since many recruiting stations are combined forces, have them provide armed guards - SPs/MPs maybe. The cost could be shared out of the budgets of the services represented. Or hire a rent-a-cop and install lock-down security gear in the building.

IF this sort of attack becomes an expanding problem, perhaps the recruiting could be moved to a NG/ANG/Reserve facility in the coverage areas?

Nofluer,

Armed military forces on civilian property ? That sounds dangerously close to martial law to me . I'm not sure how well people would take to having a Marine in body armor with an M16 sitting in the parking lot next to your local petco and wal-mart. Hell, as a Marine, I'D be concerned.

Re your other suggestion, it might be safer, but it drastically reduces recruiters exposure to the civilians they're trying to recruit, which is the whole idea behind recruiting stations. Otherwise, we'd just mail schools business cards and have them call the hotline.

We want our young men and women to feel that recruiters are approachable, that we're available to answer their questions, help them with the choice that they're struggling through at this point in their life, and they need another visual representation of the military, besides what they would see on a military base. We (recruiters) are the PR/HR department for the military.

It's sad to say, but there's very little that could be done (aside from what I mentioned in #4.1) to prevent this soldier's death. It's part of the reason we get it drilled into our heads that situational awareness is a lifestyle concept, not just a combat - oriented one. You have to constantly mitigate your risks, and understand that everywhere you go, you may run into people who intend to do you harm.

Sgt:

Situational awareness is the #1 thing that I have learned in a family of veterans. Though I medically cannot be one myself, I have been taught that the best solution to a bad situation is to avoid getting caught up in it in the first place. Always look around, take stock of behavior that doesn't seem right and trust your instincts. It not only helps prevent casualties in war, but crime in society.

Scott,

That 'gut feeling' is a de-evolved animal survival instinct that used to keep us from being eaten by dinosaurs a few million years ago. It's very well tuned, and if we pay attention to it, it typically will keep us alive.

Otherwise you're completely right. The best way to avoid trouble, is to predict it and prevent the situation from happening in the first place.

Sgt USMC #4.4

During the '93 floods, we had NG checkpoints all over the State (MO) to prevent looting and such. Got to where the folks around here would pull up, show them the Driver's License, and hand them a six pack of cold soda or jar of iced tea & cookies or some such. (I heard one troop complaining about all the weight he was putting on. If they'd been police, we'd have brought doughnuts.) ;-D

I think I have a solution - at least for in MO. The recruiters could get themselves concealed carry permits, and take their personal side arms to work and stick 'em in a locked drawer of their desk while there. Going to a High School? Make sure you have a lockable compartment on that government car. (You wouldn't take your weapon INSIDE the school, but it would be there if you ran into a problem enroute or returning.)

Of course - none of that would have helped in this case. Reading a number of stories I pieced together the possible scenario - the Pvts were probably outside on the walk having a smoke, and the clown pulls up and shot them from his vehicle with an SKS, then boogied down the road.He was apparently looking for a military uniform to shoot and found them first.

According to a witness the wounded troop was crawling toward the door holding his bleeding ear and saying, "‘Tell me this isn’t real, tell me this isn’t real,’

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02recruit.html?_r=1

So having weapons inside wouldn't have helped.

Tom:

Thanks. I had been hoping to see you there.

Constant Crisis: The Problem With Pakistan

As for the dumbing down of the news for entertainment/ratings purposes, I join in your lament, though I don't know what the solution could be.

I'm not sure what the solution is either. It's very difficult to have an unwillingly educated voting populace. LOL

Perhaps if you had headlined it something colorful, it could have gotten more readership: "Transsexual Christian Abortionists Seen as a Threat to Pakistan Idol Finale Show" would have been a good Newsvine headline.

I suspect you're right... it might have been picked up on South Asia's AP wire since it would endanger the Pakistan Idol show. ;-)

Nofluer,

Many states authorize recruiters to get expedited CCW permits for that very reason . In fact, in CA recruiters are one of the few non-law enforcement professions that they will consider for a CCW permit. However, most recruiters keep their pistol in their car.

The fact is, you're right. None of that would 've prevented this. As much as we can debate mitigating risks, we can't eliminate them.

Great discussion.

I'd like to say though, that as good as the arguments are against uniformed personnel carrying their sidearm at all times, I think they should be doing it. It may not have prevented the shooting of the man in question, but if his companion had been armed he could have returned fire, much like the Capitol Police did at the Holocaust Museum. Granted Von Brunn was a much easier mark. I don't care. If someone had taken a shot at the guy, even at his vehicle, recruiters would be less attractive targets. If military personnel are well-trained in responsible, safe use of their weapons, which they are, they should carry their sidearms, loaded, any time they're in uniform. Just my take.

Arizona, I think it didn't get the publicity because it's an indefensible act. There's no reasonable opposition to take, no controversy to stir.

At the same period of time , Terry Shiavo's fate was being decided in court, Fallujah was attacked by RCT 1 in one of the largest street to street battles in modern military history (final score 1300+ to 34, we won).

Which one got more articles written about it ?

Sgt C ... I was making the comparison that both crimes were motivated by religion. Mr. O'Reilly against Dr. Tiller and a random killing of a young man being in the wrong place at the wrong time minding his own business.

One took over the headlines and news because of the sensationalism of media fame while another was looked upon IMHO as oh, another person killed. Where was the outrage. Why no coverage and blog after blog of opinion. Why? Because it was another random act of violence. It wasn't brought about by the rantings of a hate-filled man upon another which eventually led to creating an assassin who killed a law-abiding citizen in a Church of all places. It wasn't controversial enough, of this we do agree.

hmmm ... emerging new strategy of terror in the homeland; one person at a time? Will have to reserve my opinion on that and see what develops.

Now if Long had been gay, and standing outside a court house waiting to get a marriage license, and a white religious fanatic was doing the shooting, it would have been all over the news.

I suppose the taking of American lives by Muslim extremists has become so commonplace that we no longer take notice of it. Many a soldiers life has been taken in Iraq and Afghanistan and these fine men and women are lucky if their names are reported. It is usually just a body count number. They do nice write ups in the local community newspapers addressed to those who knew and loved them but as a nation, we hardly even notice their sacrifice. Sadly the names and the faces are lost when they put on the uniform.

No disrespect to PFC William Long intended in the above comment.

I found this video, you wont see it on any of the MSM programs. These are always painful to watch.

I have often feared that al Qaeda would hit on this strategy as a way to spread the terror from the coasts inland. Just random shootings that are taken credit for by jihadis. I think that would bother people around here a lot more than anything smaller than an NBC weapon.

Tom:

Not only that but it puts me in the mind of the sniper shootings in D.C. Commerce slows down, nobody wants to stick their heads out to shop or get gas because of the minute chance they'll be the next casualty, etc. Not only that, but a moving target is always inherently more difficult to apprehend or hit than a stationary target. Drive-bys may not belong to gangs anymore. :-P

Yep. Check. The next step is someone allying themselves with AQ.

Yeah... ya know guys... I live by a principle here online. As my mind churns along considering these things, it just naturally goes tactical for the incident, and strategic for the big picture. Lottsa times I come up with strategies that could be effective, and tactics that would make them work. Things that are not being done, currently.

But I keep these thoughts to myself. No sense doing the bad guy's thinking FOR them, eh? Especially for guys like this assclown - who made some serious errors in the tactical - but *I'm* not gonna point them out.

Nofleur:

I've given away nothing that isn't obvious to a person that is something slightly greater than a strategic or tactical imbecile. Trust me, there's quite a bit I'm holding back.

Tom:

I have found "lone wolf" attackers to be anything but. There are always large networks urging them to action and they always have more than one on the hook at a time.

Tom Bombadil: Exactly right ... two "simple criminals" caused terror in the whole VA-DC-MD area for weeks. By the way, what was their motivation/religion again?

Tom, I really like you. I have to ask you this, and I hope you don't take it personally: What was the motivation/religion of the guy who killed Dr. Tiller? And what conclusion do we draw from the answers to those questions -- what the religions of various terrorists are? It seems clear that you feel that the fact that the killer of the recruiter was a Muslim says something about all Muslims. Is it also true that the religion of the murderer of Dr. Tiller says something about all Christians?

And I have to ask you this too: Is Scott Roeder equally as unspeakable a bastard as the guy who killed the recruiter?

Tnx!

I sent him an email and suggested he pass the word that uniforms in the US are now targets.

Nofleur:

I try to thank those in the service for taking my place since I'd planned to and then found out at 17 my spine was too damaged to pass muster. So thank you to your daughter and son for taking my place. I try to do the best I can for our country as a civvie. From one military family to another, God bless and protect you and your's.